Continuing the interview with don Juan and don Ivan (See previous post for Part 1), we go deeper into energy and healing. Christina Allen, a fellow practitioner and teacher of the tradition, was on the call with us, and she starts off the questioning.
Christina: I see a lot of students or clients who say their heart center is heavy [has hucha] because they have had broken hearts or love lost and that kind of thing, and it affected the actual physical quality of their heart. In science, there is a correlation physically between heartbreak with the actual physical condition of the heart. So how would you talk about that?
Don Ivan: When people say their heart center is closed, I think they are just turning the energy down. Turning off the natural flow. You can turn it off. But normally people think it is hucha that caused it, they attribute hucha to the situation, but that is not necessarily true.
Christina: Are you saying they have closed their heart center instead of having collected hucha there?
Don Ivan: I would say yes, it’s just closed. You decide to close so nobody can touch you there because somebody in the past hurt your feelings or somehow hurt you.
Christina: Would you say there is a physical correlation to or manifestation in the physical heart? Because you will see correlations with people who are shut down . . . those are the people that nurses say are most likely to have cardiac problems. Or is that just coincidental?
Don Juan: Cardiac problems don’t mean you have an [energetic] block or [emotional] disappointment. And if you have a breaking heart, if you have emotional pain from love, it doesn’t mean you have a cardiac defect. There is no correlation between one and the other. You can have a very healthy love and you have a heart attack. No relationship. One thing is the physical and the other thing is the feelings. The problem is in Western culture, where we use the [heart as a] muscle as the place for feelings. But this is a metaphor. The way you speak is really just a metaphor. Because when you finish your nice, loving relationship [have a break up in the relationship], you are not going to have a heart attack. And if you have a heart attack, you can have a loving husband. Nice, loving relationship and you have a heart attack anyway. These are two levels. Feelings are psychic factors. Feelings are in the sonqo ñawi. The other is anatomical: the heart is just a pump.
Joan: Some confusion can arise because the word “sonqo” is often translated, even in Quechua dictionaries, as “heart.” But we are clear when we teach that the sonqo ñawi is not the heart, which as the organ is pirwa in Quechua. The sonqo ñawi is the energy center, and it’s the center of the feelings. There is no hucha there, or in the organ of the heart. Correct?
Don Ivan: Yes, the sonqo is not part of your heart. The heart, the pirwa, is the organ. The sonqo is a ñawi [part of your energetic anatomy]. The thing is that in our tradition, the sonqo nawi as the center of the feelings is located in the chest area, near where the physical heart is. But in other traditions, as in your teaching Joan in the seminar of the Greek tradition and the kardia, they [the Greeks] attribute to the actual heart muscle the things [feelings] we attribute to the sonqo. Okay? So it can be confusing to some people. In terms of hucha, it doesn’t matter—neither of these [heart and sonqo ñawi] have hucha. In our tradition, and in the case of the Greek tradition, too, there’s no hucha there.
Don Juan: Every culture develops a way of using these energy centers, okay? There is an anatomical structure and then there is energetic structure. This is common to every human being. The words differ. In the Hindu tradition are the chakras, and they have certain functions. We are not working with chakras. The term “chakra” is the linguistic or cultural attribution from a specific tradition to the energy centers. We have slightly different placement of the energy centers, and we call them by different names. So, this way of assigning meaning to energetic centers is not something fixed.
Joan: It seems to me that the siki ñawi, which has the most hucha, would be important in healing—to release hucha from that center. It’s also where “reality” is so to speak: the most human part of the self, the unconscious, the impulses, the natural but possibly least developed aspect of the self. [The siki ñawi is the energy center at the root of the body, a mystical “eye” at the base of the spine in the back of the body.]
Don Ivan: Yes, it’s a fact that when you do the healing process with people, it’s the siki where you find the biggest amount of hucha that they are carrying. A very big part of that is our lack of connection with nature. Lack of awareness of the flows of [energy] of nature and natural things. Moral judgment and things that get in the way of natural thought—these are in the siki and so are other things: all the shame of sexuality, all the shame of our animal nature . . . all these things are part of our deepest nature, the most primitive aspects of the self. That is part of the hucha there in the siki.
Christina: Does hucha create [or cause] illness? Is there a causal relationship?
Don Juan: No.
Don Ivan: There are people who are really packing the hucha and they live in a healthy way, perfectly healthy. And there are really nice, powerful people who get sick and die.
Christina: So, if you were to describe someone who has illness, would you describe them in a vibrational way? Because you are going to change their vibration through the hampi munay [healing energy]?
Don Ivan: When you are ill, the frequency of your energy, the amount of your energy, goes down. But this a consequence of the illness, because you are not in your full power. . . So, your energy goes down. The disease affects the state of your energy. Of course, when you have a lower level of energy you have less chance to heal yourself or develop the healing faster. This affects your performance. [Your level of energy] can turn your self-healing capacity on or off. So that is one thing. If you are in a good energy, this will help your recovery. This will influence your recovery. But with hucha, you can be very healthy, and as a person with sami, you can still have disease.
Joan: Still, we learn to tune energy, such as raising munay to hampi munay, because it is a higher frequency or vibration. The higher vibration is the healing energy. Correct?
Don Juan: About healing. Just try! It’s not about explaining how. You don’t say “It is the hucha, it’s not about hucha.” No. It’s not so much about that. It is about tuning, but in certain circumstances you can perceive within yourself that you are capable of doing it.
Joan: But my point is that we learn to tune energy. We speed it up, and there’s obviously a reason to learn to tune energy, so I just want to be clear about that. It’s explicit that if we tune energy to hampi munay we can use it to facilitate the conditions within ourselves for healing.
Don Juan: In every step of development, you are healing something [at some level of the self]! People who are starting out on the path, they can do something and healing happens! But it’s totally random! [Unless you are fifth level, healing is out of your sphere of influence, because you are not controlling that energy.
Don Ivan: All the energies that are needed [for healing or anything else] are there already within you, because of your Inka seed. But when you are growing, you can hit the nail [heal] but randomly. When you arrive to the fifth level, you will know how to tune yourself to that energy. You are going to tune yourself and make it [healing] happen. The power is already always in you, but at first maybe you need some help or it is random. The thing is that when you arrive from the fourth to the fifth level, healing will happen every single time! It’s not going to be random anymore. But I think that all the elements that are needed are there from the beginning, so when you hit the nail randomly, healing happens some times and not others.
We always say that healing is like a symptom of [correlation to] your consciousness level. At the sixth level, you glow: the light [glowing] is a consequence of your consciousness level. So there is something beyond only the act of healing. . . . With the light, it means that your consciousness has arrived at a level where you can manifest that energy—whether to be able to connect with the light or the healing. So yes, you can say there is a goal behind tuning energy, but the healing is not the goal, just like the light is not the goal at the sixth level. There is something more that you can decide to make your goal—and that is your own growth.
Don Juan: The healing is only a measure of your self-development. The goal is self- development. The goal is the level of consciousness. You start by tuning with munay. It’s a tool. But you tune your munay to improve yourself. You are not going to perform a physical healing, but certainly you can heal your own psychic background and your personal story—this is something you can do, and it happens for all people. That’s why you need to learn to tune to hampi munay, too. And sometime maybe you are going to attain the fifth level [that of the infallible healer], but maybe not. But first, you are working [tuning energy] to improve yourself.
Christina: Would you also say it’s learning how to entrain? If you can vibrate at that hampi munay level you can impart that to others?
Don Ivan: Yes, you can do that. And you can teach and share it with other people. But the fifth level is different. It is healing everything, every time. So imagine. . .the thing is I cannot really imagine the fifth level! How satisfying would it be if I were able to go to a hospital and heal someone who was dying and that person walked out of the hospital!
Don Juan: There is a karpay to the fifth level, to the level of the infallible healer, and that is the Mosoq Karpay. We do not yet have that karpay, and it is only given by God. It is given to a person directly from God. We can’t do it [healing] by ourselves. We use the energy of Father Cosmos and Mother Earth, but the karpay is given to us from the Holy One.
In the final interview, Part 3, we talk more about what a fifth-level healer is like, as well as topics ranging from the mind in healing to mental health issues such as depression to healing animals.